What Is 'Quality' When It Comes To A Used Car?

"Steven Lang" (StevenLang) 01/21/2015 at 14:05 • Filed to: None

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Twenty-five years ago, a book called, The Machine That Changed The World , offered a roundhouse dope slap to those automakers who were just preaching the quality gospel.

Today I am honored to offer a new long-term quality study, over two years in the making and 600,000 data samples strong, that is answering this very same question for those of you shopping for a used car.

This information will be available for free, forever.

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The Long-Term Quality Index is designed to do two unique things that no other study has attempted to do in the history of our business.

The first is to completely remove all forms of ownership bias.

These vehicles are all individually inspected and appraised by professional car buyers who are trained to detect mechanical and structural issues. By relying on experts who spend their lives examining used cars, we eliminate the overlooked and unreported issues that owners often fail to report in other industry studies.

We also take a close look at !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! after the usual period when new cars are under the microscope.

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Most quality studies offered to the general public either focus on initial quality (90 days) or what industry analysts have called long-term quality (3 years to 5 years) which is well out of whack with the average age of today’s cars and trucks (11.5 years).

Due to this lack of long-term analysis, an awful lot of vehicles end up receiving recommendations earlier in their life, and then !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Our goal is to show whether each specific brand and model is indeed living up to their public billing, or simply using clever marketing strategies at the beginning and shafting their customers in the long run.

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Our findings show that you can still hit em’ where they ain’t by buying an !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Also, we have found that some popular vehicles are !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! when it comes to long-term quality.

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To make this information powerful and concise, we provide simple graphs that show those green reliable vehicles, the red money pits, and those yellow borderline cases that may give you pause. In this coming year we also provide overall long-term quality ratings for the engine, transmission, and powertrain of the specific model that interests you.

So sit back. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . And don’t be afraid to ask us questions directly here. We look forward to doing our own part in helping all of you change the economics of long-term car ownership.

bob and john > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 14:15

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hmm. interesting. define "quality"
is it by # of problems? severity of problem? how happy owners were? cost to bring back to show condition?

I seem to recall my father telling me something that mini was once the worst ranked car not because it was a bad car...but because people were bitching that the cup holder was too small.

also, do these charts take into account how the car was maintained? because if you give a suburban yuppie an audi(which frankly, thats who buys them now) and he/she simply doesnt do maintenance on it, it is obviously going to be in worse condition then a pickup taken car of by a farmer for 10 years.

also, do you take into account the motors? example: audi and VW's TDI has got to be one of their better motors, but the 4.2V V8? with the timing problems probably wasnt

Gamecat235 > bob and john 01/21/2015 at 14:27

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These cover some of my concerns. Maintenance being a huge factor (perhaps people who buy Lexus are more religious about maintaining their cars? maybe Lexus is better with getting people to come in for maintenance?), but you do outline some concerns with this data.

However, given the sample size, some of this will come out in the wash, but not all of it. Some of the smaller sample sizes may be thrown off by a few cases of user neglect. I mean, all real world data will have margins of error, and unreported incidents which lead to mechanical issues happen.

It's a neat study, and I can absolutely see where some of these findings are matching what I have seen in the ownership experiences of others around me. But more raw data and methods would be nice to see.

BigBlock440 > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 14:32

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I'm confused as to what the graph shows. You say the colors mean something, but do the numbers? Are colors expense and numbers frequency, or numbers expense and colors frequency? Why are some downward bars green and some upward bars red? Seems to be interesting data otherwise.

BrtStlnd > Gamecat235 01/21/2015 at 14:34

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I'm guessing "frequency of repair" & "number of customer complaints" will factor heavily... these things are so difficult to get value from without some kind of scale of severity when it comes to overall quality.

I forget where, but I remember reading that squeaks account for a large majority of initial quality repairs...

Steven Lang > bob and john 01/21/2015 at 14:36

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Great question!

Long-term quality is defined by:

1) How long the owner was willing to keep the vehicle before trading it in.

2) The mechanical condition of the vehicle with separate calculations for the engine, transmission, and powertrain.

3) The mileage of the vehicle at the time it was traded-in.

Like most quality studies, a sample size of one is not statistically significant. This is why we waited a full year before publicly releasing our findings. You can find more in depth information in the article below.

Hope this helps!

https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motorami…

Gamecat235 > BrtStlnd 01/21/2015 at 14:37

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Yeah, and quite a bit of historical warranty department forms and record keeping is geared more toward financial and accounting than actually determining true cause of failure/complaint. And with financial incentives for some of these, or corporate policies which dictate certain remedies, a lot of that type of data is noisy from the start.

ETA: essentially, any data collection method will have some bias in it. The method here sounds like it is separate from warranty type collections, but still may overlook some types of data. And also it is censored in some ways by only factoring in cars which have reached auction (does not take into account "infant mortality" type issues).

Steven Lang > BigBlock440 01/21/2015 at 14:40

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The numbers are the statistics behind the bars and graphs you see. We provide it because a lot of folks prefer to see numbers instead of graphs.

The colors are used to help separate the data so that it's easily understood. The study started with a strong focus on cultivating data samples, and now that this information is far more in depth, we will be migrating the data into a simpler visual presentation.

Flat Six > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 14:44

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Wow this is great. Very nice work! It's so hard to separate owner bias when learning about cars on forums and this does exactly that.

I was surprised to see Mazda be so low. The Miata appears to be an exception (above average quality) for them, but I wonder if that is due to Miata owners being enthusiasts and taking better care of their car. My Mazda 6 has definitely had more problems than my Miata ever did (e.g. bad ignition coils, oil leaks).

BigBlock440 > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 14:48

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To make this information powerful and concise, we provide simple graphs that show those green reliable vehicles, the red money pits, and those yellow borderline cases that may give you pause.

Ok, so this isn't referring to anything that's done yet, just what will be coming? The charts make more sense now, thanks.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 14:49

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I love how GMC and Hummer have different rating even though the H2 and H3 were both just badge engineered GMs.

Steven Lang > BigBlock440 01/21/2015 at 14:51

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It is being done now. just feel free to click on the brands and scroll down for the specific model that interests you. We will have a drop down menu that will make this a one-step process.

Honda Passport

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Gamecat235 > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/21/2015 at 14:52

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Usage profiles may have varied (difference in types of first owners)? Or maybe some of the badge engineered modifications actually introduced or eliminated different issues?

(just playing devil's advocate).

Steven Lang > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/21/2015 at 14:57

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GMC sells a lot of other models.

Badge engineering doesn't mean that the two cars have the same interior and exterior components or powertrain mix. Both of which have a serious impact on the long-term quality of a vehicle.

What has surprised us at this point, is that GMC is now ranked higher than Honda overall. We weren't expecting that in the beginning.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 14:59

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Whaaaaa? It would be nice to be able to sort by submodel. The AW11 MR2 is damn near unkillable. The SW20s don't seem to be as hardy, but this could be because of it having a different customer base on the used market.

BigBlock440 > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 15:02

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Oh, I didn't even notice those were color coded.

Also, how did you handle vehicles that were the same model, but completely different vehicles? I'm sure there are more, but the 2000's Stratus/Sebring shared their names with a completely different vehicle, and the 2-door version was much less reliable than the 4-door. Are they just combined, I guess? Makes the 2-door look better while the 4-door looks worse, but I guess it's easier than trying to catch all cars that are like that.

BZiel > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 15:06

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Wouldn't the "How long the owner was willing to keep the vehicle" parameter create a downward statistical bias for makes like Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, BMW...as purchasers of the higher-line makes are most likely to be of the means to trade/sell their cars and purchase newer models more frequently?

I can see a construction worker buying and keeping a Chevy truck for 10 years, but, a plastic surgeon or bond trader pulling in $400k a month isn't going to keep driving around in a 10 year old BMW.

Further, higher line vehicles, are purchased by those who can most likely afford multiple vehicles, once again biasing downward those manufacturers. I can almost guarantee that nobody who trades in a Kia chooses which of four cars to drive on any given morning. Those people that trade in their 2014 Porsche Panamera GTS with 18,000 probably can.

Just asking...

Steven Lang > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/21/2015 at 15:06

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We have presented the details within models before. But we had to wait until we had enough samples to make the data reliable for the everyday consumer.

If you look at the right hand side of the web site, we have highlighted vehicles by model year for specific market segments.

This year we will be developing the data further so that each model will be able to have a year, model, and powertrain breakdown along with a graph that shows where quality issues have spiked, and why that is the case.

Here is a sneak peak from Yahoo earlier this past year.

https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motorami…

Steven Lang > BZiel 01/21/2015 at 15:12

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Excellent question!

We have found the exact opposite to be the case. and part of it is due to the face that we decided early on to only use independent non-franchise car dealerships.

This way you don't wind up with half the trade-ins coming from a specific brand and you avoid the leasing and financing issues that can skew the data.

Mercedes and Porsche have been above average overall. Although there is a lot of variance between the models. Hope this helps!

BZiel > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 15:52

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Thanks Steve.

Another question would be about trade ins/sells from one manufacturer to another brand. Any metrics on that?

BigBlock440 > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 15:58

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Kind of makes sense. GMC's are just trucks, typically higher end, and trucks are robust. GMC doesn't have the cars dragging the brand as a whole down like Chevy does, and Honda doesn't have any trucks.

Steven Lang > BZiel 01/21/2015 at 16:01

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We are tracking the number of trade-ins for each brand. One surprise has been the ocean of Volkswagens that have been traded-in versus other brands with similar sales numbers, and their high defect rate.

Although a 5-speed/TDI combination seems to be the exception to the usual VW rule when it comes to long-term quality.

BlurpleToyotaDishwasher > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 01/21/2015 at 16:04

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Every AW11 dies of cancer sooner or later.

JoeLiebig > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 16:05

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Is it possible to get something more than a point estimate on a quality score? I want to know what the distribution looks like. Like, for instance, "how reliable are the 20% least reliable cars of brand X?".

Also, I do not like the standardization to 100.

Is it possible to change the metric? Something like expected repair cost? Or number of issues? Or time between two unplanned repair visits?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 16:20

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I don't see how you can break this down by model and not by year, or generation.

In my research before buying my car, I found a 2003 Pathfinder like I bought to be very reliable, but a couple years later, after the redesign, there were serious problems. For nameplates that span decades, engines, transmissions, etc., you need much more granularity to make this useful (unless you're more interested in brands as a whole).

BZiel > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 16:42

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Let me reword my question...are you keeping metrics on customers selling/trading one brand of vehicle for another....trading/selling a BMW for a new Chevrolet...Subaru for a Honda...etc?

Steven Lang > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 01/21/2015 at 16:49

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As I mentioned in the article and comments section, we will be breaking it down by year and powertrain during 2015.

We have already done this for many of the best selling models (see the graphs on the right for market segments), and by the end of 2015 we'll have it broken down by year, model and powertrain along with a million unique data samples.

It takes a while to cultivate all that information and content. Now that we have enough data for the overwhelming majority of models and generations, we're going forward with providing it and in the times to come, each brand and model will be featured on Kinja/Jalopnik with specific information as to the specific model's strengths, weaknesses, and overall long-term quality .

All the best!

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 16:52

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Good to hear. Keep up the great efforts! Hope it pays off (literally) before too long.

ciscokidinsf > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 16:55

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I've used this data set for a while in my last few car shopping adventures. It has worked. Looks very well put together. Hard to read sometimes for year models and comparisons

Want a sample on accuracy in models? Check their Suzuki brand data -

You will see that the models actually manufactured by Suzuki (e.g. the Esteem, SX4, Aerio) have good scores, and the Daewoo based crap sold under the Suzuki brand (Forenza, Leganza, Reno) is horrible as we all know it is.

I bought a 2002 330ci based on the recommendations, and surprised to the see the 535i 's are better than then 530i's for BMW

Steven Lang > BZiel 01/21/2015 at 17:29

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We're focused now exclusively on long-term quality.

We wanted to create a solitary focus in the beginning of this study. It's better to develop one study that does an excellent job of revealing new insights versus ten that sorta/kinda answer a variety of questions.

As the data becomes more robust we'll share more aspects of it.

Here's one article that offers a bit of a unique tilt to the quality question. The ten worst...

https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motorami…

DrScientist > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 17:45

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thanks for providing us with access to this data.

may i ask from where the data was collected? you mention by whom and what data was collected, but not how you were able to get professional car buyers to inspect and appraise all 600,000 of the cars and give you their data.

i'm not poking holes in your data or methodology, just curious about how you orchestrated this collection.

472CID > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 17:55

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What the hell Mini?

Steven Lang > DrScientist 01/21/2015 at 17:57

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It took a while, and yes, there are confidentiality agreements in place and there is a lot more to the data than just this particular study.

Long story short, we obviously can't tell you the specific sources. But we can furnish all the VIN numbers and related data to those in the industry who may benefit. This information, if applied correctly, may help refine certain decision models that go beyond the study of long-term quality.

I'll cover that in the months ahead. All the best!

G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3 > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 18:13

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My car isn't on there.

Steven Lang > G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3 01/21/2015 at 18:47

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We will have a section for Oldsmobile models as well as Geo and Plymouth. We found that orphan brands that are more than ten years old can distort the rankings.

So we'll be releasing brand and model data that are only specific to them instead of putting those vehicles in the overall rankings.

Oh, and all the Olds models score well except for the Cadillac of minivans.

Psychodo > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 20:01

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Interesting but not too surprising.

Question - can you explain how mileage affects the ratings?

Looking at porsche for example:

Miles are low (to be expected for this brand) on average, dials are all in the green but overall rating (manufacturer quality index rating) is low average.

Anon > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 20:15

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I agree 100% with MINI being at the lowest! Mine was reliable as a Bill Clinton staying faithful.

Steven Lang > Psychodo 01/21/2015 at 21:28

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Low mileage or a short period of ownership won't necesarily penalize the overall rating.

What does is having either one in combination with a major mechanical defect.

ColdSlaw > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 21:45

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What is the Y-axis of the bar chart at the top of the post?

kristinbytes > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 22:45

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How are you factoring cars that are never traded in? If 90% (a completely unrealistic and made up figure to make a point) of Honda Civics are kept by their original owners then junked at 200,000 miles that would indicate long term quality according to your definition but does not seem to be factored.

Psychodo > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 22:48

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Ah, thanks for the clarification. Look forward to the breakdown and thanks for sharing the info

wiffleballtony > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 23:24

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How am I to differentiate between model years or is this just cumulative? Like all Mustangs over all time for instance?

DrScientist > Steven Lang 01/21/2015 at 23:40

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can i venture a guess?

Steven Lang > kristinbytes 01/22/2015 at 08:01

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This is an excellent question.

Some of the extremely unique cases, such as the one owner car that is sent to the crusher instead of traded-in at some point, can't be followed by any public or private source.

Most states don't have emissions regulations or annual registrations that track mileage, and none have an annual inspection (like Germany for example) that accurately track the mechanical condition of the vehicle. Optimally, if they all did this, you could have a public database loaded with tens of millions of vehicles. I would love to have that information available to everyone, but would hate the intrusiveness of a government that would try to make this a reality.

The fact that is that the overwhelming majority of vehicles in the United Statesare traded-in at one point or another. Over ten million vehicles a year go through this process and this database now has over 600,000 unique data samples from all over the country. By the end of 2015 it should have over a million, and this process of accumulating data will continue forever. So inevitably, all but the most rare of vehicles will have a solid foundation of long-term reliability data.

All the best!

kristinbytes > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 08:58

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Thank you for the information.

I happen to family where we tend to buy new then keep our cars until they're junk or selling to a family member rather than trading them in. Every car I've ever owned was bought from a family member or friend including my current '99 Saturn SL2 which got a bad rating but has proven quite reliable and cheap to maintain.

MrBlah > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 09:35

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what on earth is going on with mini, lesson learned lease a mini if you want one

Herr Quattro - Has a 4-Motion > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 11:09

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huh surprised Audi and VW arnt the same considering how many parts are shared

G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3 > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 11:10

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That's good. I never really liked the Cadillac of minivans anyways.

Patrick George > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 11:37

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Goddammit.

bpromersberger > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 12:56

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Welp, there goes my plan for getting a used mini as a beater.

As Du Volant > bob and john 01/22/2015 at 12:57

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The cup holder complaint sounds like Consumer Reports. I recall Honda getting smacked pretty badly for "initial quality" because their navigation systems were hard to use.

DoYouEvenShift > Gamecat235 01/22/2015 at 12:59

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I think you hit the nail on the head there. For example. Ive replaced wheel bearings on H2 more times than I can remember. Alot of that has to do with the tire sizes. 315/70-17 ATs are much heavier than whatever comes on the GMC trucks. Plus its heavier. Then you add people that put 24"+ wheels on or huge offroading tires.

Just a random example.

dustin_driver > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:03

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Yeah, but if I listened to this, I'd only by Hondas. And then I'd be forced to Honda Turbo Kit, which would negate any inherent reliability in the vehicle. Now that I think about it, a Fit with a turbo would probably be really awesome.

DjM1390 > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:05

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So they split the GTI from the Golf but not the WRX from the Impreza? I was genuinely intrigued. I'm not surprised by the Impreza's rating because of the guaranteed head-gasket job somewhere between 100-120k.

DerW220 > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:06

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It's great to see more real-world proof which German manufacturer proves to be the most durable. Maybe the people who constantly bash Daimler will start to accept they are more durable than the stereotypes suggest? Hell, even BMW scores better than most of our domestic choices.

CaptainWompus > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:06

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One thing I found interesting - as the owner of a Town & Country - was the differences between the Chrysler T&C and Chrysler Voyager. They are essentially the same vehicle, with the Voyager being the SWB version of the T&C. They use the same engines and transmissions (3.3L & 3.8L), but the Voyager has less reliability than the T&C.

Now I know the Voyager was the cheaper or bargain version of the T&C, and I see a lot of them being driven by the... backwoods folks, who don't tend to maintain their vehicles as well as others might. This could certainly have an effect on the numbers, because two vehicles that are essentially the same vehicle should have mirrored results. Does that have any factor into your numbers? Because that could point to issues more related to people not maintaining their vehicles than it would to manufacturer defects / failures.

Sethism > Patrick George 01/22/2015 at 13:06

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Your Mini is now the butt of all the jokes that used to be about Doug's Land Rover.

HammerheadFistpunch > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:07

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Oh MINI. surprised? Not even remotely.

HammerheadFistpunch > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:09

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Oh BJ...I hope you made the right choice...

#4 on the worst used cars list (granted the LR isn't called the discovery anymore in the US)

"4. Land Rover Discovery (Expensive parts. Expensive powertrains. Electronics that are apparently the spawn of Beelzebub.)
"

Ted Ladue > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:09

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This is amazing! Thanks for doing and sharing!

Major_Error > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:10

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Mazda on the bad side of the line is sad. All I can say about my 7 years with an '07 3 (HB, MT) is "fun drive; shame about the dead engine @98k."

Skamanda > Patrick George 01/22/2015 at 13:11

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Lowest score in the JD Powers initial quality surveys, too! :D

DerW220 > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:11

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Tavarish! Our 220s are rated as above average in reliability! Now we have model-specific data to show people.

HammerheadFistpunch > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:12

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Also...not surprised. What does a Quality score of 100 mean anyway?

Pibbs says once you go Swede > Patrick George 01/22/2015 at 13:14

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Us Saab fanboys are waiving down at you from our pillar of reliability. While we wait for the tow truck.

55_mercury > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:16

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This report is about the same as the others. Toyota, Honda, and their luxury brands are at the top of the list, the American automakers are generally under that and coming in last are the majority of the European automakers. ( Holy crap!.... Mini?)

OMG, TTA! > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:17

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Well... I own a GMC (#3) and a MINI (#deadlast). So, I find this particularly interesting.

TheDanKest > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:20

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lol nice to see Saab on the good side lol . everybody who talks to me thinks they are the most unreliable car ever . when what i have noticed is that if you buy one the random indy tech u bring it to knows nothing about it so charges you out the ass.

Major_Error > BZiel 01/22/2015 at 13:21

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Funny you bring this up. While I technically stayed under the "old" FoMoCo umbrella, I went from a Ranger to a (Mazda) 3, to a S60

shortyoh > bob and john 01/22/2015 at 13:23

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All solid questions.

Warranty Direct used to (maybe they still do?) offer a reliability index based on their warranty claims. That was pretty darned unbiased, IMO. It had some very interesting data back in the day - such as bits like this: Fords were likely to need repair something like 1.6 times as often as Toyotas. However, Fords on average spent 20% fewer days in the shop per year as Toyotas, and the average total annual repair costs were 30% lower for Fords.

So pick your poison - do you want to visit the repair shop less often but at higher total cost and for more days, or visit more often at lower total cost and for fewer days?

That sort of information is invaluable. If you took the CR or JD Power approach, you would choose the Toyota every time - but for many people the Ford would be the much better choice.

One thing I wish they had collected was data on the predictability/urgency of the repair. I'm much less troubled by a repair that becomes necessary that I can plan for than I am by the repair needed because my car suddenly wouldn't even start in the morning or by a breakdown without any warning.

Lurker113 > Pibbs says once you go Swede 01/22/2015 at 13:23

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You all look like ants from the driver's seat of my LS400.

My British German car wasn't that reliable, is now dead > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:26

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now are the newer minis really that bad, or is that they were all purchased by sorority girls who think oil change intervals are just a suggestion?

Brede > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:28

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I'm a big fan of Warranty Direct's Reliability Index (UK), which measures number of failures, time spent in the shop and cost of repairs. This is a great tool for us European car buyers. AFAIK there's no American study that has the same combination(?).

kis_ev > 472CID 01/22/2015 at 13:31

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A buddy of mine bought a used JCW for $14K last year. It's cost him $4K to date for new tires, battery, thermostat, and seal. Now he's found out he needs a new turbo and clutch at another $5K. With 115K miles on the car, he's just going to get rid of it. He's not a car-guy and I told him not to buy the MINI, but he didn't imagine it was going to be this bad.

aMaG1CaLMaNg1Na > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:32

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Factoring only trades in to this seems to be missing out the vast majority of the cars out there.

shortyoh > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:34

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I love how so many models don't even begin to correlate with other reliability studies...

For example - the Mazda6 is listed as well below average. Yet every other source has it (with the exception of the Mazdaspeed6) as well above average.

Nice try, but I don't see this as very useful. Yet.

Pibbs says once you go Swede > Lurker113 01/22/2015 at 13:36

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Funny, I thought you'd be asleep at the wheel.

Danger > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:37

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Toyota 4Runners and Land Cruisers, looking good.

Mad Suburban Dad > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:41

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There's a gaping hole in this data, but I can see why you chose to ignore it. Most manufacturers have "off years," and this dataset doesn't drill down to that level of detail, likely because your sample sizes would have been too small to yield any meaningful interpretation.

Case(s) in point: the 00-03 Honda Odyssey transmissions were notoriously bad, with many incidents of failure within 30K miles. The drivetrain was used in other models with similarly craptacular results. Honda faced two class action suits and later gave owners free transmissions if they failed within 100K miles. But overall, the Odyssey is OK, and some model years are absolutely fine.

— an 00-02 Volvo V70 transmission is made of spun glass and angel hair pasta. 06-07 are strong like bull. Etc...

— 94-99 Saab B234 engines can take tremendous abuse, the B235 from 99-09 is far more fragile and prone to sludge.

Voodoo81 > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:45

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I was defintely impressed with the Toyota, even though they are the most boring thing with four tires and a steering wheel. They sure know how to make a reliable automobile. The Land Cruiser was especially crazy.

bubbajoe123456 > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:46

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Betcha the source is CarMax. 600k vehicles seems a pretty reasonable number to flow through there, it's a nonfranchise dealer, and they do the inspection on every car they see (whether they buy it or not), so they'd certainly have the data available.

timgray > bob and john 01/22/2015 at 13:49

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I have seen toyotas and lexussesss that were 4 years old and 100% garbage because of the owners. The first owner is a HUGE variable into the reliability of a vehicle in it's used life.

timgray > BrtStlnd 01/22/2015 at 13:53

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I have noticed that New BMW owners bitch and moan about the dumbest crap. Look at the forums about 5 pages of complaints that the headlight beam color is slightly off from the drivers to passengers side. Lots of complaints about really really stupid things. For example the X3 and X5 SUV had huge complaints about how it had a "rough ride" These people are morons that have never ridden in a sport SUV before.

aps360 > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:55

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I came across your site a few weeks ago and I found it quite interesting. I am fascinated by reliability and perceived reliability.

I see that you list transmission issues, engine issues, power-train issues. Can you elaborate a bit on this? I couldn't find on your site where any further detail was provided. What constitutes an issue? Also, what other issues are taken into account?

Also, I see that you talk about average mileage. Does your reliability ranking take into account average mileage? I can see how this would be interesting if you could guarantee that all vehicles are driven the same number of miles per year but without being able to correct for that it seems like interesting info, but not indicative of reliability.

Your Yankee car is a piece of trash > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 13:56

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Everybody craps on Toyota / Lexus, but they are WAY ahead of everyone else, still, and probably forever...

timgray > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 14:01

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You guys need to break it down by model years. Because some model years of vehicles are complete crap yet later ones they fixed all the problems.

I would like to see a graph of quality based on model year.

DavidHH > BZiel 01/22/2015 at 14:01

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The opposite is true, that is people with more money than spare time tend to keep a good product longer. My wife is not the only Doctor who drives a 1984-87 Audi 4000Q at the hospital she works at, there are at least three others.

Gamecat235 > My British German car wasn't that reliable, is now dead 01/22/2015 at 14:02

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I had the same thought, the same goes with the New Beetle with the AT being horrible. While the TDI with a manual is rock solid. This may be bigger than just the drivetrain, but says more about who buys them with these options (usage profiles).

That said... re: Mini. Of the 5 enthusiasts I personally know who had Mini's (all S's, all manuals) 4 of them no longer have them or are in the process of no longer having them due to issues.

Steven Lang > HammerheadFistpunch 01/22/2015 at 14:03

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It means it finished first. Congrats!

RazoE > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 14:04

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Dat Lexus/Toyota quality, tho.

RazoE > Flat Six 01/22/2015 at 14:04

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rust rust, baby.

Steven Lang > dustin_driver 01/22/2015 at 14:05

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Not quite!

https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motorami…

Steven Lang > DerW220 01/22/2015 at 14:05

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Let me say congrats on behalf of Tavarish!

Steven Lang > kis_ev 01/22/2015 at 14:06

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This doesn't surprise me in the least.

HammerheadFistpunch > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 14:07

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woo hoo!

Steven Lang > Herr Quattro - Has a 4-Motion 01/22/2015 at 14:07

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As you know, there is a lot more to these vehicles than some shared parts. This type of study helps make that differentiation over the long run.

SOCdriver > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 14:07

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How does the IS not have a perfect score? It must be due to owners lack of maintenance. I have a former coworker who is turning over 300K on his IS300 and has had ZERO issues with the car.

Louros > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 14:08

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Here's to hoping that no potential buyers see this chart when I decide to sell my Mini :)

Steven Lang > JoeLiebig 01/22/2015 at 14:08

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We will be offering head-to-head comparisons of your choosing, as well as comparisons within specific model years (03' Caravan with the 3.3L vs. 03' Odyssey).

GreenN_Gold > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 14:09

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I'm thoroughly confused by the graph. I drive a dark red upward pointing 59.

PJ > Steven Lang 01/22/2015 at 14:09

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Nissan Altima : Nissan Altimas with four-cylinder engines built between 2002 and 2006 experienced excessive oil consumption as a result of improper performance of the piston rings. Catalytic converters on these models also tend to break down during this same period, which scores the cylinder walls of the engine.

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